Scriptural Answer to Alcohol

[melchizedek]

This topic has bothered me for a while... I really appreciate what the restoration movement has done. The slogan "Speak where the Bible speaks, be silent where Bible is silent", in my opinion, is a noble one. However, I have noticed that in the main stream congregations of the body of Christ, it is taught that consuming alcoholic beverages is a sin.

The question: Is this teaching, (that consuming alcoholic beverages is a sin) in line with the slogan of the restoration movement, or is it a trespassing, a manmade commandment, in other words, a sin in itself?

[jessie]

to what extent of consuming are we referring to? one of the requirements for a decon is "a man of not much wine".

i am sure with this that theres a difference in having a drink or two and being a drunkerd.

in this passage concerning the decon..one who helps in the church it doesnt keep him from drinking..so we must read it close.

[melchizedek]

to what extent of consuming are we referring to? .

Well, from what I understand, the traditional congregations of the Church of Christ teach that consumption of alcohol in any amount is a sin...

are you from International church of Christ?

[buck jr]

Since the Churches of Christ are non denominational It is in error to say "all" teach the same thing on every subject, or even to use the term "traditional", there is no consensus to do so. but the differences that I have encountered usually are not ones that can place your soul in danger. I have found many more differences in denominational teachings within their own congregations that most definitely will.
1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Clearly shows that "any consumption" cannot be considered sinful, cough syrup has alcohol in it, taken correctly this cannot be considered sinful. 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. This verse shows where the line is drawn as to how much you can consume, everyone is different in this respect but the definitive term is "Be sober", 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Although man himself makes a difference between drunk and buzzed, in my opinion God does not, therefore drinking enough to "feel" the effects is going beyond the commandment to "Be sober". Most all of the Churches of Christ do frown on the consumption of alcoholic beverages simply because of the potential outcome of starting, this I know first hand,I am a former drunkard, and I do not use the word alcoholic because I reject the premise that it is a disease, I made the choice to start drinking knowing that it could lead to what it did, and everyone else that does so knows as well. With that being said , as a Christian we ARE held to a higher standard and how we are perceived by the public does matter, so ask yourself are you setting a Christian example or not by what ever "drinking" you are wanting to do. I hope this is helpful............ In Christian love, James

[melchizedek]

Since the Churches of Christ are non denominational It is in error to say "all" teach the same thing on every subject, or even to use the term "traditional", there is no consensus to do so. but the differences that I have encountered usually are not ones that can place your soul in danger

Thank you James, for your comments... I sincerely appreciate them... and most importantly, I would like to note that I am more concerned with the false teaching (that drinking alcohol is a sin), if indeed we can conclude that it's false.
I am not sure what the term "non denominational" has to do with this... "autonomous" or "independent of each other" may be the better term... and I agree that I don't know if EVERY congregation out there teaches that drinking alcoholic beverages is a sin... however, there is a large number of congregation that interact with each other, at least in some way, publications, preacher retreats, etc. they refer to themselves as the "brotherhood"... I am refering to the congregations in the US, mainly in southeast... Memphis school of preaching, sunset school of preaching, Harding University, House-to-house heart-to-heart, Gospel Advacate, are some of the things that are sorf of their "common ties".

Anyway, those that consider themselve a part of that "brotherhood" hold to the idea that consumption of any alcoholic beverage, other than for medicinal purpouses, is a sin.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. Clearly shows that "any consumption" cannot be considered sinful, cough syrup has alcohol in it, taken correctly this cannot be considered sinful.

That's the issue, you say that you could consume cough syrup, in proper moderation... what about consuming a glass of red wine, with your dinner, at home, and perhaps another one after dinner, when the kids are down? it's is a well known fact, that red wine, in moderation, is healthy...

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. This verse shows where the line is drawn as to how much you can consume, everyone is different in this respect but the definitive term is "Be sober"

with all due respect, that is not what Peter is talking about... this is one of the most common misconseption that is taught on this subjet... the word "sober" in this verse comes from greek nepho, which literally means to obstain from wine and figuratively means to be discreet, or sensible... if we look at this scripture in context, Peter later on talks about the adversary, and refers to him as a roaring lion, walking about seeking for someone to devour. Peter is talking in a figurative language, and because of that, we have to take the figurative meaning of the word "sober" and when we do, we will see that he is most definitely not talking about obstaining from wine, but rather he is pleading with the christian reader to be watchful of their actions, of their thoughts, of their words, because the adversary is waiting and looking for the weak, and as soon as they fall away from the flock, as soon as they sin, miss the mark, separate themselves with sin, he will attack.

I am not saying that we should get drunk, there are other scriptures that forbid drunkedness... but I am simply saying that this particular scripture should not be used in defending this teaching, because the term is taken out of the context.

Would yo agree with me on this?

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Although man himself makes a difference between drunk and buzzed, in my opinion God does not, therefore drinking enough to "feel" the effects is going beyond the commandment to "Be sober". Most all of the Churches of Christ do frown on the consumption of alcoholic beverages simply because of the potential outcome of starting, this I know first hand,I am a former drunkard, and I do not use the word alcoholic because I reject the premise that it is a disease, I made the choice to start drinking knowing that it could lead to what it did, and everyone else that does so knows as well. With that being said , as a Christian we ARE held to a higher standard and how we are perceived by the public does matter, so ask yourself are you setting a Christian example or not by what ever "drinking" you are wanting to do. I hope this is helpful............ In Christian love, James

You said that it is your opinion that God does not differentiate between being completely drunk, to the point where one is not able to control themselves in any form or fashion and feeling a slight effect of the wine as it reaches the stomach and is being digested. You are most definitely entiltled to your opinion... however, have you noticed how you've taken your opinion, combined it with scripture that is taken out of context and made it into what seems to be the "law", the commandment that forbids consumption of alchohol, other than for medicinal purpouse?
I am nont trying to be "hard" on you... I simply implore that we take our opinions aside, and look at the scriptures... If the scriptures clearly forbid the consumption of alchohol, then we will come to that conclusion by reasoning together, but if the Scriptures do not forbid it, then neither should a honest christian.

[melchizedek]

. With that being said , as a Christian we ARE held to a higher standard and how we are perceived by the public does matter, so ask yourself are you setting a Christian example or not by what ever "drinking" you are wanting to do. I hope this is helpful............ In Christian love, James

I completely agree with you on the fact, that as christians, we are held to a higher standard... the question is, what are we willing to do, to achieve that? are we willing to compromise the Truth, in order to be perceived by the non christian public as christians? in other words, are we willing to just look like christians, or should we be christians? We should not be afraid of the truth in this matter.

You have to understand and believe me when I say that I am not bringing this up in order for you, or anyone else, to tell me that it's OK to drink... I am bringing this up because I think that teaching this is a sin, it is a trespassing of what has been written... there are honest christians out there, who beleive certain things simply because they were taught that way, and they teach others that same thing they were taught, with the same arguments and quotes from scriptures... not realizing that they may be teaching false doctrine... unrestored doctrine... doctrine that has been coined by protestants (by men) and not by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 15:10-12 (English Standard Version)
10And he called the people to him and said to them, "Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person." 12Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?"

Pharisees were teaching that to eat with unclean hands is a sin... but Christ said that what they were saying (man made commandment) was actually defiling them... Pharisees wanted to simply be seen as clean and holy men, and to reach that goal, they made some false teachings, and were trying to accuse anyone not following those teachings...
I most definitely hope that that is not what you, James, are defending. We should not sacrifice the truth, to be conceived by public as holy, or set apart.

[back40]

Hi all, this is my first post here!

This is an excellent thread and worthy of an in-depth study.

I decided that it was worth registering here just so I could respond to this post.

Once I realized that the "fruit-of-the-vine" used on the Lord's Table (unfermented grape juice) contained leaven (yeast) [as does ALL the other possible forms of "fruit-of-the-vine" (fresh vine-ripened grapes and raisins) except one...fermented WINE, containing alcohol], then all the scriptural passages speaking about using alcohol in moderation made sense.

It is drunkeness that the Bible condemns, NOT drinking in moderation!

Jesus MADE wine! (John 2:1-10)

Jesus DRANK wine! (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34)

Jesus taught, through Paul, that the regular use of wine is good for our health! (1 Timothy 5:23)

And, MOREOVER...

...Jesus REQUIRES His disciples to use WINE during the communion rite on the first day of each week! (...this do...!)

Fermented, alcoholic, wine, again, is the ONLY form of "fruit-of-the-vine" that has depleted all of the leaven which it originally contained!

A careful study of All of the passages relating to one's use of alcohol will reveal that it is only the abuse of alcohol that is condemned!

In Christ,

back40

[melchizedek]

A careful study of All of the passages relating to one's use of alcohol will reveal that it is only the abuse of alcohol that is condemned!

I agree with this statement... just like earning money is not sinful, but love of money is, so is the case with wine... consuming it in moderate amounts is ok, consuming it to the point where one becomes drunk is sinful.
question: is the teaching, that consuming alcohol beverage is sinful, in itself a sin? in other words, someone who is teaching in the name of the Lord, in his authority, that drinking wine is sin, committing a sin by adding to the Word, or by corrupting, twisting the Word of God?

[back40]

How wonderful, and refreshing, to find a member of the Church of Christ that is truly attempting to "rightly divide" the scriptures!!!

I must fall on the side of it being a sin to teach against the use of any alcohol.

Not only is it a sin to bind where the scriptures do not, but it changes a congregation of Christ's one true church into a denominational congregation...one which follows the teachings of men!

Please be aware of the risks facing you when you present this truth, as well as others, to a Church of Christ, I was disfellowshipped in 2007 for rebuking my congregation about the way they conducted the communion rite.

In Christ,

back40

[melchizedek]

[quote="back40]
I was disfellowshipped in 2007 for rebuking my congregation about the way they conducted the communion rite.
[/quote]
What exactly were you rebuking the congregation for?

[back40]

My original concerns developed over the way that the bread was being handled.

A dispute arose among the membership when our treasurer, who also did the shopping for the supplies the congregation needed, took it upon himself to change the bread we used from the traditional large crackers to bags of tiny small chips of bread.

I decided to begin a personal study of this issue for my own edification. As a result of my study I came to realize that the scriptures teach the use of 'one loaf' of bread on the Lord's Table. (...this do...)

The leadership, fearing such an understanding would lead to something akin to our congregation becoming a 'one cup' sect/division of the church of Christ, refused to even consider my interpretations of the related scriptures.

This issue, alone, resulted in my being disfellowshipped.

However, this truly was the best thing that ever happened to me. This greatly invigorated my desire to learn more about how Christians worshipped in the first century.

So, as my studies continued, more flaws practiced by the churches of Christ, as well as all other denominations, have revealed themselves to me.

Churches are NOT to have more than one Lord's Supper per week. (Tary one for another) There was no morning service, followed by an evening service, with a communion rite performed at each!

The church assembled after sundown each Saturday, which was the beginning of the first day of the week, Sunday.

Which presents another problem for those who are claiming to worship as those of the first century worshipped. Sunday evening services which fall after sundown are actually being conducted on a scriptural Monday, right?!?

As already pointed out, the leaven found in fresh grape juice is another!

And, women 'wearing-a-covering' while praying hasn't even been touched on yet!

And...so... on and on it goes!

Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts if you see flaws with my logic.

In Christ,

back40

[melchizedek]

Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts if you see flaws with my logic.

It's not really flaws in your logic that I see, but possibly rather certain lack of understanding of the phrase "in spirit" as it is written in John 4 (NIV)

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

John 4 (ESV)
21Jesus said to her, (V) "Woman, believe me,(W) the hour is coming when(X) neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22(Y) You worship what you do not know;(Z) we worship what we know, for(AA) salvation is from the Jews. 23But(AB) the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father(AC) in spirit and(AD) truth, for the Father(AE) is seeking such people to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." 25The woman said to him, "I know that(AF) Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes,(AG) he will tell us all things." 26Jesus said to her, (AH) "I who speak to you am he."


How do you understand this concept, that the Father wants worshipers to worship him in spirit and truth?

[back40]

Ah, you make an excellent point!

Biblical scholars, which I am far from, tell me that to worship "in the spirit" means to worship with one's heart rather than by form.

But, where does one draw the line?

John 8:51 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

2 Timothy 1:13 KJV
(13) Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

How far can one's "spirit/heart" drift from the commands and examples of the word and still be worshiping in "truth"?

Why not just worship at any church...Catholic, Baptist, Methodist...?

In Christ,

back40

[back40]

So, do you see wine as being required in communion?

If so, are you intending to share this understanding with your congregation?

In Christ,

back40

[melchizedek]

So, do you see wine as being required in communion?
back40

I don't know why I have not been notified of new post... I would have replied sooner.

Math 26:29"But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:25 (English Standard Version)
25Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

I've read it from Green's Greek-English interlinear translation as well, and it say's the same thing.

Is unfermented grape juice a fruit of the vine? If it's not, then those that are drinking it during the Lord's Supper are in the wrong, if it is, then they are not missing the mark...

The word "fruit" used there is Strong's 1081 GENNHMA - offspring or produce...

So to answer your question, I would say that I draw the line there... if someone were using apple juice, or Pepsi... I would say that they were on the wrong side of the line, missing the mark, sinning... but is they are using a fruit of the vine, fermented or not, it's still a fruit of the vine... they are withing the mark.

[back40]

So you are comfortable using a 'fruit-of-the-vine' that contains leaven (yeast)?

In Christ,

back40

[melchizedek]

So you are comfortable using a 'fruit-of-the-vine' that contains leaven (yeast)?

In Christ,

back40

First of all, I am just wondering what is the big deal about yeast? I mean, under the Old Law, the jews were not supposed to have anything with yeast at their houses for that holiday... but how does that law concerns a christian? We are not under the Old Law... is there anything in the new covenant, that forbids us from using yeast?

Second, Are you referring to grape juice? or red wine?

Either way, it does not matter... Grape juice - fruit of the wine, is pasteurized, (at least that's how it's sold in US) that process kills all living organisms, therefore it does not have yeast...
In wine, the yeast dies out as soon as the alcohol reaches certain level, actually, yeast fungus consumes sugar from the grape juice, and produces alcohol as byproduct, and eventually as the level of alcohol reaches lethal levels, (approx 11.5%) the fungus dies out, the wine stops fermenting etc. etc.

So, you see how I can't really answer your question with a simple yes or no... Honestly, I don't know if I would have a problem using "fruit of the vine" with leaven in it, during the Lord's supper (please let me know why you think that would be wrong) But, it does not matter, because neither wine nor grape juice have yeast in it.

[back40]

A lot of what you say is accurate!

Once even pasteurized juice is exposed to air, the wild yeast cells floating around in it, the air, are attracted to it like a magnet.

Put some pasteurized grape juice, that doesn't contain any modern chemical preservatives, in a bowl, at room temperature, cover it with a cheesecloth to protect it from dust and insects, and just see for yourself what happens.

Using instruments that are available today, alcohol will be detected within minutes, and within hours an untrained tongue can even detect it.

In a couple of days it will be partially fermented, and will have plenty of zing.

At the end of one week from when visible fermentation started, it will be as fully alcoholic as it will ever be using this Old World method.

You will need to study the scriptures to answer your other questions.

But, I will say that I do think that one who goes to the trouble to use unleavened bread on the Lord's Table, while using unfermented grape juice, which is teeming with leaven on the Lord's Table, is an absolute hypocrite!

[melchizedek]

Put some pasteurized grape juice, that doesn't contain any modern chemical preservatives... Using instruments that are available today, alcohol will be detected within minutes, and within hours an untrained tongue can even detect it.

Brother, we are not creating wine from grape juice... in a regular setting (I've never done this, but have witnessed someone filling the cups) there is not enough time for the juice to ferment.
The grape juice bottle, with pasteurized juice in it, is taken out of refrigerator (below 40 F)! less then 30 min before the services, and the cups are filled... no time for the juice to warm up, etc,.

You will need to study the scriptures to answer your other questions.

I honestly do not know where to begin... maybe you can help me get started.

But, I will say that I do think that one who goes to the trouble to use unleavened bread on the Lord's Table, while using unfermented grape juice, which is teeming with leaven on the Lord's Table, is an absolute hypocrite!

I cannot agree with you simply because I don't understand why unfermented juice, which is still a fruit of the vine, is such a big deal to you.

[back40]

Brother, you most certainly ARE creating wine from grape juice (where else could it possibly come from?), and if preventive measures aren't taken, Mother Nature will then, over time, turn the wine into vinegar!

Mother Nature, and the science of botany (yeast is, after all, a fungus) will not be denied!

Study to show thyself approved!

In Matthew and Mark we have the examples of the Lord's Supper to follow.

In Luke and 1 Corinthians 11 provides us with the same examples of Christ's 'last supper', plus adds the commands to "this do" for each element, both the bread and the wine!

How else can we "this do", unless we do WHAT He did, the WAY He did it?

If leaven (yeast) is to be avoided...well, you will just have to work out your own salvation, yada, yada, yada!

BTW - There are many strains of yeast, with many different tolerances, of both temperature and alcohol, as a search of a homebrew store, or the internet, will reveal.

These different strains all come from out of thin air, and have been cultured and reproduced in quanity to supply market demands. Baking yeast is generally not used since its tolerances are unknown. The many Lager yeasts cultures operate and function perfectly down to 33 degrees F. It is the sugar that the yeast is attracted to!

So, just opening a jug of 40 degree F Welch's while standing in front of a refrigerator will allow some yeast to be attracted to the sugars down in the jug itself, where they will continue to reproduce by the second in the jug itself, even after returning to the refrigerator, not to mention the yeast cells that will be attracted to the sugars in the little mini-cuplets themselves, which provide a much greater surface area to attract leaven, as they get even warmer and attract more and different strains.

Rest assured, there will be leaven in any grape juice, other than fermented wine, found on the Lord's Table.

BTW2 - NO 'fruit-of-the-vine' used at any Passover Feast (March/April) or even Pentecost (May/June) , before refrigeration, could have been anything other than fermented wine. Only during the time of harvest, the fall of the year, would vine ripened grapes be available to create Welch's type juice, north of the equator. And even then, without Pasteurization, or modern chemical preservatives, within seconds the yeast cells collected on the skins of the grapes, will begin generating alcohol.

In Christ,

back40